On this episode of doodles 2 dollars, I chat with Kayla Dean, a brilliant copywriter and brand messaging strategist behind The Literary Co. Kayla’s worked with over 150 creative entrepreneurs (yes, you read that right!) and she’s dropping major knowledge on what it takes to craft powerful copy that truly connects. From her business journey to the dos and don’ts of website and sales copywriting, Kayla gives us the inside scoop on how to nail your brand messaging and engage your dream clients.✨
Grab your headphones and get ready for some serious tips to level up your copywriting game! 🎧
Swell AI Transcript: Kayla D_final.mp3
Ksenia:
doodles 2 dollars
Kayla Dean: Hi, I'm so excited to be here. So I'm Kayla, a website copywriter and strategist at The Literary Co. So I specialize in website copywriting, brand messaging, and sales copywriting for creative entrepreneurs.
Ksenia: I'm so excited to have you on here. And I'm sure we'll talk about this more about your program. everything that you have going on. But to kind of get started and go back to the roots, I would love to know your journey as an entrepreneur or maybe even before you got into your business.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, absolutely. So my background is in English literature. So I went to school for I have a bachelor's and master's degree in English. So you know, for a long time, like from childhood, I always knew that I wanted to write like it was just something that was always really interesting to me. I was always really passionate about it. I would always have like notebooks and write little stories. And, you know, I would go spend time at the library and check out 10 books at a time and read through all of them. So I was always really, really passionate about that. And growing up, it was so funny because I knew I wanted to write, but I was always having people tell me like, Oh, well, English isn't really a viable major. You need to have a day job. It's fine if you read on the weekends, but you know, writing's not really a thing that you can do and you need to find a backup. And so, you know, I grew up always going, I want to write and that's something I want to do, but how can I, you know, how can I do that? How can I make that work? Like I've been told that that's not really an option. And so, you know, I went to college and I wasn't really sure what to major in because Honestly, the whole time I wanted to major in English, only to go, oh, well, that's not really a viable major. So I spent a lot of time trying to major in other things. I changed a couple of times. I tried things in the medical field. I tried engineering. Like, I looked at a whole bunch of things. And then, you know, at the end of the day, like two years into college, I was like, you know what, like, I'm tired of like, changing and changing and just trying to like, find something that's going to fit when honestly, like, I know what's going to fit. And I'm tired of just like, you know, spinning my wheels trying to find something else, when I know what I want to do. And I've always known what I want to do. So I finally switched over my major. And you know, at that point, I was like, you know what, if I'm gonna get my English degree, I'm going to use it, I'm going to be a writer in some capacity, like even if I'm rewriting technical manuals or like whatever it is I'm doing, like I'm going to be writing or editing or doing something in some capacity and I just wasn't quite sure what it was going to be. So, you know, I started doing a lot of internships in college and then from there, I started doing more freelancing, pitching articles to different places. I took a pitching class on how to pitch articles and get more yeses. And that was a really great foundation because sometimes I would pitch publications that I was like, oh, there's no way they would want anything from me. You know, they're never going to say yes. And then I would get, you know, sometimes it was a no, but then I'd get pleasantly surprised sometimes when they're like, yes, we love the story idea. Like we'd, we'd love to pay you. We'd love to have this piece in our, you know, in our magazine or on our blog or something. And I was always so like, oh my gosh, what they want me. That's so cool. So I was doing a lot of that in school, you know, freelancing, doing internships, you know, just starting to step out into those different kinds of things. And, you know, throughout college, I was always like, I would look at job boards way more than was probably normal because I was so worried. I was like, what if I can't get a job being an English major? And I was so worried. And I was like, I need to make this work somehow. So I was always looking for different kinds of jobs. I'm like, I could do this. I could do this. I could do this. All these different things, just as proof that I could do it. And then I started following people online and I started seeing more people that were freelance writers that were… Some people were more on the journalism side, like they were talking about current events or culture or something like that. Some people were doing blog writing. But then I started finding people that were doing a lot more like writing for businesses. And I was like, Oh, that's so interesting. That's something I've just never heard of, like didn't know was a job was never really presented as an option to me. And something I kind of remember is like, in the journalism school, there was a copywriting course, I remember at college, like wanting to take it, I was like, kind of sort of interested in it. But you know, I wasn't, you had to take like two or three classes in a sequence before you could take that. So it was like a whole thing. I was like, okay, you know what? I don't have time. I've got all these other classes, like didn't work out. So I knew it was like a class in the journalism school, but it wasn't something, you know, I was telling someone this the other day, like there isn't really like For the most part, maybe this is changing. There isn't really like a copywriting major at school, you know, like you could major in marketing or journalism or communications or English, and maybe that's a pathway in. But there are people that come in from a lot of other industries too. I mean, people come in from things that are completely unrelated and maybe are none of those things. So, you know, I got out of grad school and, you know, I was considering doing something in academia. I was at that time, I was like a grad teaching assistant. So I was like, you know, teaching freshmen, you know, composition and business writing. And, you know, I was working at a writing center. And so I was like, oh, well, maybe I could work at a university or I could work in a writing center or something like that. I really thought about going back for my PhD. And then I was like, no, I don't really want to do that. I don't think it's me. I don't really think academia is for me. And that's a whole other conversation. There's so many things in academia. But no, so I decided not to go back. And I was like, well, I am interested in starting my own business, which at the time, I think that that wasn't the vocabulary I would have used because that just wasn't really in my mind. I was like, oh, I want to freelance. I'd love to work from home. I'd love to have that flexibility. I would love to just be writing. I don't want to go work in a bank or something. I really want to do something related to what I went to school for. So at that time, I was trying to figure out what is that thing, juggling different assignments, just applying for different jobs, different freelance things, just trying to figure out what it is that I wanted to do. And then that was when I started finding out what copywriting was and seeing how needed it was, how much businesses really need website copy and all kinds of copy, really. But I was finding website copy was just so, so needed and can be a struggle for a lot of businesses. And then when I discovered and at that time I was in a lot of Facebook groups and I was joining different groups and I was like, wow, there's this whole world of like creatives that are, you know, designers and artists and wedding pros and like people doing all these like super creative things that, you know, it was a whole world that I wasn't really familiar with and just, again, like didn't really know was an option. And once I started connecting with those people, that was where I found my first couple of clients. And it was just so exciting to find out that that was a thing I could do. And for such a long time, it wasn't even really a business for me. It was just like, Oh, cool. I'm getting these cool jobs and I'm working from home. And I wasn't really sure if it was going to turn into anything really, because to me, it just wasn't a business at the beginning. And it took a while of going and making it official, going, oh, okay, I'm incorporating as an LLC. I'm separating my business finances from my personal finances, because that was something at the time, the first year of taxes was so awkward because everything was all in there in one place. I see you're nodding like, oh my gosh. having that experience. Yeah, taxes that year were a hot mess. And I was like, never again. So it was making it more official. I was like, Oh, so this is what people mean when they say they started a business. So the rest is history. And that's kind of how I ended up here.
Ksenia: I love that even though you heard, like, English is not, for lack of a better term, like, not the vibe, like, don't go that way. Like, you're going to waste your time. I love that you still stuck with it. Like, even though you tried other things that you still were like, no, I'm going to actually do what I know I want to do and make it work. And I totally get that because I remember I think I decided maybe like six months before I had to apply for university that I was going to go into design because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm an art kid. But then also heard like, you can't make money from art and tried accounting, which I'm like, I hate math. And then my dad wanted me to be a lawyer. And I'm like, I hate conflict. I'm not doing those. But obviously, for me, it was like my dad was like, you can't do these things because they'll be useful for me because he was a business owner too. Yeah. So I love that you continued on. Is it just kind of like, based from what you were saying, it kind of felt like it was always there. You always knew that that's what you wanted to do. But you were just like that. Oh, you can't make money from it. Don't do it. Just cause you to take a little mini detour.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because from the time I was like a little kid, I always loved reading and writing and it was just such a passion of mine and I always grew up like I really wanted to be a novelist and I still really feel like I have several books in me and you know, things I've written and things I want to say. And, you know, honestly, it's like I've spent the last few years, like building up my business and kind of growing in that regard. But it's like, I totally see my writing, like evolving that way to like different books I could write. It's like still things I think about, like writing is still like very much like big. part of my life. And, you know, so it's taken the shape of like copywriting, but it's like, there's also so many different like types of writing that really inspire me and things that I'd love to pursue as passions. And, you know, I'm always reading something like I just, you know, it's so funny, I heard to, you know, from like, you know, various adults, like, oh, you'll grow up and you'll become an adult and you won't have time for reading. And I'm like, well, that sounds so depressing. Let's please not do that. And, and it's just, you know, it makes me happy. Like now, you know, as an adult now, you know, 30 years old, like I still read like almost daily, definitely weekly. And it's just, you know, it's so nice. It's like something that I've really learned is that you really like the things that are valuable to you, like the things that really matter that you really, really care about. you will carve out a space for them in your life, like you will make time for them. And definitely, there's times when there's competing demands or busy things going on and obligations. So even if it's just a small amount of time, even if it's just like, you know what, 10 minutes a day for this thing or 30 minutes a day for this thing, whatever it is, being able to carve out even just a little bit of space for that is so important. And when you really love it, you make that space for it.
Ksenia: Absolutely. With the things that like with the different majors that you studied briefly, like you mentioned, like engineering and the medical field, is there anything from that time that has kind of stuck with you? Whether it's just like, Oh, now I know that this thing or like, even if you don't use it in your day to day, I'm curious if you took anything from that.
Kayla Dean: Oh my gosh, yes. I took so many interesting classes actually when I did different majors. I remember one semester, I was like, I'm going to be a civil engineering major. So I remember I took several civil engineering classes and there was one class that I had to take where we did this… I'm barely remembering now because this was so… I want to say this. Gosh, this was probably like eight or nine years ago. This was so long ago. But I kind of remember us having to like construct some sort of like building plans or like something for a building. And we had all these like I-beams and we had to like do all these calculations. I mean, it was like really intense, like math stuff. Like I took all the way up to calculus too. And so, you know, I was doing a lot of like calculus and math and just like really STEM heavy stuff at that time. And I remember me and these two other girls in the class, like we were one of the few girls in the entire class. It was mostly really male dominated. And that was really interesting because we were, you know, really working on our project and you know, trying to do all these calculations and figure out how everything all went together. It was so hard. It took so much time, so many meetings in the library. And I remember we came out of that and we got a really good grade and we're like, wow. And it's so funny, too, because I'm pretty sure I don't think I think only one of us in the group actually stayed around to keep being a civil major. I want to say like me and one of the other girls ended up changing majors the next semester. And I remember I took anatomy in high school and in college. And I always thought that was so interesting. I remember we had to dissect a cat actually. Well, this was in high school. And then in college, we didn't have to dissect a cat. But It was so, so weird. I remember in 11th grade, we had this teacher and he would like teach at the university near us. And so he was the only teacher that would teach that class. And there was like only one or two sections of it. So it was like kind of hard to get into his class. And then the whole project was like for like, gosh, I want to say like two or three months or something. We had to like dissect the cat. And it was so gross because the classroom would smell like formaldehyde. And it was just It was so gross and it was so weird, but it was so interesting to learn about anatomy and understand where all of our organs are and how do our bodies go together. And a lot of those pieces of wellness that go together to make our bodies function, I thought that that was really interesting and almost like just interesting as a person to know like how your organs work and how your body functions. I thought that that was one of the more like applicable science classes I took because, you know, some of the other ones I took like, okay, like chemistry, I feel like I never knew or like physics. Oh my God, physics was so hard. That was like probably the hardest class I ever took was physics. I struggled so hard with that. I would not have passed without a curve.
Ksenia: Yeah, I remember in high school. I also stuck around and did biology in grade 12. It was optional for us because that was the anatomy one. But I think looking back at science, I think we only dissected really, really small things. One of them was an eyeball, which was super gross.
Kayla Dean: I think we did that too. Was it a cow's eyeball?
Ksenia: Yeah. I did not eat eggs for a really long time after. just because they look similar. Yeah. And then I think we also had a frog.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, it was weird. And it was so weird too, because we would have lunch period like right after that. And I would just feel like, I mean, almost like a little nauseous from like all the formaldehyde, like the classroom would just stink. It was so gross. And then I feel like you could just like smell it on your clothes later too. It was so gross. And I'm like, I don't know, like half the time I was like, I don't know how I can eat after this.
Ksenia: Yeah, I totally get that. So now that we've kind of gone through everything, I'm curious, like, what made you decide to go back for your master's? Like, was there something that was really important there? Or is it just that? Yeah, I'm curious, like, was it because like, you tried a bunch of things in your bachelor and you're like, No, I want to do this for real with just this one thing I love. Yeah.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I went straight through, like, I didn't have a break or anything like that. I went straight through, like, from bachelor's to master's, like, right away. And I knew I wanted to do that because I really, I wanted to go more in depth. Like, I didn't get to stay in my English major, like, as long as, you know, maybe others that were that from day one. Like, I did some other things in different majors and I did a lot of my general classes the first, like, year and a half, two years. And then those last two years were definitely, like, a lot more, like, writing heavy. And I was like, well, honestly, I felt like I wanted more time to like go more in depth and study more and just kind of deepen that. I felt like I was also still trying to figure out like what I wanted to do or like what a career would look like. And, you know, I also remember at that time I was able to, you know, kind of go through school, thankfully, with since I was like a graduate assistant, I was able to like get my school paid for and I had a little bit of a stipend too. So that helped a lot, like not having to, you know, like pay for that master's degree was really, really great. And that was, you know, that was a big help to be able to just kind of like deepen my education and just go a little bit further.
Ksenia: That makes sense. If you wanted to, like, go into academia or teach, would you have to like, even if it was at like, say, a high school, do you need to have your PhD? Or would like a master's get you there? I'm just curious, because it might be different for me.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, it can depend by like by school or by, you know, state. And I know in Canada, too, it might be a little bit different. But no, I know like the way it was kind of explained to me is like some community colleges will let people with master's degrees teach and, you know, a lot do. I think a PhD is preferred for a lot of those positions and especially to like for anyone that wants to be like a professor in the long term, like even just like an adjunct or an assistant professor or anything like that. There's a few different tiers of professors. You kind of start at the bottom and you work your way. They largely prefer PhDs. And I think it used to be, it used to like less so be that, but it's like, more and more like PhDs are preferred. It's like more and more people are getting them. But then like the spots for those positions aren't necessarily growing. A lot of it's actually shrinking. And I think, you know, there's a lot of issues there like in academia, like people, you know, So something I saw a lot of too is like people not getting paid enough, like unless you were like a tenured professor, if you've like been there for 20 years, you know, a lot of people that were like adjuncts or working part time, like they, you know, had a lot of classes like thrown at them, like four or five classes thrown at them and they're like barely getting paid enough to teach them. And so, you know, a lot of the students would think, oh, these professors are so rich and they're making bank every year. And it's like, no, actually, that's not true. A lot of professors, unless they're tenured, unless they are really, really have been there for a long time, they're not getting paid a lot. A lot of those days of getting paid a lot in academia are largely gone. So I think it's like you can teach with a master's degree, but just because of the environment, PhDs are preferred for the most part.
Ksenia: Yeah. Is that why you chose not to go into academia because of like seeing just how it's set up and like you said like it's shrinking, they get paid like nothing?
Kayla Dean: Yeah, it felt kind of tricky. And I think too, you don't have a lot of control and where you go like location wise, because, you know, you could get your PhD and then you can spend a really long time like looking for a teaching position. And I mean, they could just send you to like the middle of nowhere. And you're like, Oh, goody, I have to go to like, random middle of nowhere school. Like, I don't really want to go there. Like, you kind of have to go where the job is. And I was like, Yeah, I don't really want to have to do that. And you know, not really know like where, if or when I could get a job or feeling like I don't have a lot of control over like upward mobility. And that was something I was already saying. I say to myself a lot, like if it had been, I don't know, 20 or 30 years ago, when I don't know, like women were in a way like still in academia and like maybe not super welcomed, but they're more like, maybe I would have been like, yeah, like maybe, maybe I could go and maybe I could be in academia, but it's like, it's at such a point now, it's just, it's very saturated. It's very competitive. And, you know, unfortunately, like that just that just felt like really, really challenging to me. And I was just like, yeah, I think I think I'd rather go like create my own path. I think something that I really love about entrepreneurship is that I've really gotten to, you know, I get to decide when I work and how many clients I take on. And, you know, even like locationally, like Like when we moved across the country for my husband's job, I didn't have to worry like, oh no, I have to find a new job. It's like my job literally does not change. And you know, it's like, oh, I took a few weeks off work to move and then I'm here and it's the same. And that was something I really, really loved is my job literally like goes anywhere and You know, in a way too, it's like cyclically with your business, like you can go through like slow periods, but the nice thing is, is like your business is always there. It's not like you can get let go from your business. It's like you have your business and you have that job. that was really nice to me. And I mean, it's cool too. I've been able to like work from my laptop, like all over the world. Like one time we, we worked from Spain for a month. We had to go for my husband's job and we stayed in an Airbnb there in this like little tiny town in the middle of Andalusia. And we were there for a month. It was so funny because our Airbnb did not have wifi. And I was working off of like my phone's internet basically to like hotspot my computer. And I was working from this like little tiny table in our little Airbnb in southern Spain. And it was so cool, because I know I said like, again, and again, like, if I had a traditional job, like I wouldn't have been able to have an experience like that. And, you know, it's so cool to think that I could easily do that again, if I wanted to.
Ksenia: Yeah, that's so cool. My mind is because I hotspot too. But my mind instantly was like, Oh, my God, what was your phone bill?
Kayla Dean: Yeah, it really wasn't too bad because it's so funny because I'm still at 30 years old. I'm on my parents' phone plan and it's just so funny because they got in like 20, 25 years ago. Like I remember when I was a kid and they had one of those like bigger like brick phones and they called it like the cell phone. And they've been on T-Mobile since then. And my mom's phone number has been the same for like 20 plus years because the cell phone was that first number that they had and they'd share the phone. And so they've had T-Mobile for so long that I'm just like, yeah, I'm just going to stay on the parents' phone plan. So no, I called my dad and I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have internet. What do I do? And he's like, okay, let me Let me call him and figure it out." So he turned on the international phone plan and it really wasn't that expensive, but I only had a certain amount. I had a limited amount of internet for that whole month. So I had to ration it out a little bit. I was like, okay, I can't go on Instagram too much. I need to be careful. I can't use this to stream too many videos because that's going to kill my internet. So I really had to budget the internet for the whole month. It was so funny.
Ksenia: I still get that. I'm on my parents' plan because like you get into the family plans and it is so much cheaper. I'm glad you didn't get completely ruined by fees. Thank you so much for sharing the journey. I think that's so interesting to know. And I definitely relate to kind of like falling into your business for lack of a better way of saying it. Like you start freelancing and they're like, oh yeah, this is cool. And then one day you're like incorporating and setting up business accounts. Obviously, I know that we've worked together through a course, but within your business, are there things that you've set up, whether it's on the copy side with your messaging, because that's your jam, or within accounting, for example, that you have seen have made a big difference in how you operate?
Kayla Dean: Oh, I love this question. Yeah, I feel like there's been so many things. Yeah, as far as with the accounting, definitely having a separate business account, setting up an LLC, those have been really huge. And also working with an accountant as well. I am definitely for getting help in that area because I know some people are like, no, I'll just do it on TurboTax. And I'm like, no, my taxes are too complex to do that. That's too hard. I'd rather just have help. And I've been working with the same accountant for, I want to say, six or seven years now, pretty much since I came out of college and had enough money to go to an accountant basically. I've worked with the same company since and they always help me with that. So that has been so, so key. I would also say on the operations side, setting up standard operating procedures, I would say that was a huge learning curve for me because not having a business background, that wasn't something I was that familiar with and not having a corporate background either. So that was something definitely having some help with. getting my processes really set up and repeatable, getting things where my projects have specific steps in them and timelines to each and standard procedures for each one and formats we follow and this is what we give the client and all of that kind of stuff has been really, really huge because I used to just reinvent the wheel for every single person and then I finally got to a point where I was like, oh, right, okay, this is why people have repeatable, things again and again. So that was like, wow, like, you know, real revelation for me. And now having it run that way for several years now, that has been like so, so, so key. And then as far as like the copywriting side, like definitely focusing on messaging has been so important. And I've just kind of, you know, evolved it as I've gone. It's like we all start somewhere. And you start with a certain kind of message or maybe not really having one at all. And just kind of like spending that time like finding out like, what is your business about? What do you do? What do you offer? What do you like? What do you not like? Because I know early on, I heard people say, niche down, niche down. And I was like, well, I don't really know who I want to work with or what do I like. And I had to try a few things to see like, this is my ideal client, or these are the kind of people I like to work with, or these industries are things that I don't really like. And so really honing in and starting to target more to those types of clients and showing the kind of work that I want to attract was like a key thing to like, don't show work that you don't want to attract more of. All of those things have been really, really key and just like allowing myself to evolve and letting things change as I go. And Raising prices too, as I've gone as well, because I started out at the beginning, like really, really, really low prices, you know, kind of to compensate for the fact of like, hey, like I have a writing background, but like didn't know too much about copywriting. And as I've like up-leveled my skills, worked with my clients, gotten results, taking, you know, kind of professional development, I've been able to, you know, grow my prices and have these really great project types that are really, really great value for the client, but then they're also sustainable for me to offer too. I don't get into this point where I'm overwhelmed or overbooked or overpromising. I'm able to really deliver on what I say I'm going to do for the client and then they're really happy and they get great results. So those things have been huge.
Ksenia: Yeah, as you're talking, I'm like, hmm, did I do those things? I'm like, maybe. But I've heard about SLPs so much. And I think there's, I know there's a value in them. But I think as someone who's like in the creative space, it's kind of hard to be like, okay, let me write down everything I'm gonna do and then have to stick to it. Because my brain wants to be like, no, but it's a new client. Like we can, we need to go down this path. And then realistically, we do the same thing every time. I mean, on my side, so mental note to look back at SLPs. to pivot a little bit with copy because that is what you do. And obviously, like, having worked with you in some capacity, love, love it. Yeah, I'm curious. I can totally see the connection between the literary co and how much you read and you mentioning that, so that's awesome. With your expertise and everything you know about what you do and even the clients that you work with, are there key things that really stand out to you of like, this is something that I see my clients face a lot or this is what I see people just in the world facing a lot with their coffee?
Kayla Dean: Yeah, absolutely. I know. I'm like, I'm always such a broken record. Cause I'm like, messaging is so important. And what I mean by that is, is really taking the time to think about like, you know, what your business is about, you know, what makes you stand out and what makes you different. And I think what can be a struggle. And I think this is just, everyone struggles with this. I struggle with this because I think that we get too close to our businesses and it's just that whole, like, we can't see the label from inside the jar thing. And it can be really difficult to go, okay, what makes me different? What do people like about working with me? What makes people come back again and again? And that can be a struggle sometimes to relate that to ourselves and to be objective. And so if we're able to Not necessarily like overcome it, because I think, you know, sometimes there always be doubts or, you know, fears or whatever, we kind of like feel a fear and do it anyway. But like, if we can start to understand, like, what do our clients love about the process, love about working with us and kind of like extract that and bring that into how we talk about our work and really make sure we're like, understanding like at what level our clients are coming in like stage of awareness is really important. Like thinking about, you know, for example, with like brand and web design, like how much do they know already about a solution? Like have they worked with a designer in the past? Is this totally new? Or, you know, are they someone that's like been following designers for years and they know what a sub market is and they know about funds and they know about all that stuff. They're a little more sophisticated or someone who's like, oh my gosh, I have a problem and I'm not able to reach my ideal clients and I don't really know why. So thinking about where that person is, is really important. So being able to educate them for whatever level that they're coming in at, being able to identify and show within your process what makes that unique, what makes that stand out, what do people love about working with you, and then just being able to show in your work, here's the kind of work I do, here's the results that my clients have gotten, and just making it a really inviting experience.
Ksenia: That's so good. I'm like filing it all into my mind just to see if my website still does that. But yeah, okay. So because on my website, I've mentioned this a few times in this podcast, but I took the Copy Society course and or program. I don't know how you define it but that has been huge for me and like the results like I've never had people be like oh my god I love your website copy like I love what you wrote um whether or not they're a client whether it's someone who wanted to like partner with me and people even ask me like did you write your copy? So why is it important for someone starting out or just someone in their business to actually know how to do their copy or know their messaging versus just being like, here, to a copywriter, take it, do something with it.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's like totally like pros and cons to both. You know, it could be really great hiring it out. Like, you know, you're getting that support, like they're kind of taking it off your plate. But on the other hand, you know, sometimes it is really great to learn that skill. I mean, copywriting is such a key skill as a business owner. It's like there's so much copy that you need in your business, like not just on your website, but you know, in your emails and in your lead magnets and your Instagram posts and even like Thinking about what to have like video scripts, I mean, that's kind of a form of copy. It's just a spoken word copy instead of written. So there's so much copy that we need in our businesses. So it is really important. And there is a lot of value in learning how to write your own copy. And I think it's nice too, because then you have a little bit of control over the end result. Not that you don't at all with a copywriter, but you know, they're kind of taking it and they're working their magic and they're presenting it to you. And you know, my process with clients is usually very collaborative. I'm presenting things, they're providing feedback, advising. So we do a few rounds, right? But you know, ultimately, like the one writing it, they're kind of making changes to something that I've written. Versus like if you're writing it yourself, you have full control of the end product, like you can really decide how you want it. You can kind of like see, you know, especially if you're working with like a template or course or a programmer, you know, whatever it is, you can kind of take like, you have the framework in front of you. But if there's anything that really truly, if you're like, ah, this doesn't apply to my business, or maybe this doesn't resonate me, or I'm going to try something different here, you're totally free and welcome to do that. But you can learn the rules, learn how it works. I always love that thing with writing, learning the rules and then breaking them. It can be hard to break the rules and subvert expectations or whatever, if you don't know the writing rules. So it can be really helpful to learn those foundations and understand how this all goes together. And then you can use that to write copy for anything in your business. So it's such a great skill to have for your own business. So there's definitely value there.
Ksenia: On another side of like, what made you decide to create a program or a course around copy? Because like, obviously, like you said, like, it's, you have the one on one project side, like, down pat. And like, also, for me, like, I am very project based. So I understand that. But like, what led to you wanting to do it as a as a course or as a program?
Kayla Dean: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I did a little like research around it because I was like, you know what, I'm going to go like ask people and get their insights and kind of see like from people, you know, that are following me or I'm following them kind of see like their thoughts. And something that I was noticing is that people really wanted that feedback component. Like there definitely are like, you know, ways to get help with your copy. But, you know, something that I really wanted to offer through my program was the ability to get feedback and support and you know, present drafts and just be able to get that help and get that feedback. And so for the last two years, I believe, I've been offering that. And you know, it's been really great to kind of help people in a different way with their copywriting, you know, kind of show them how it works, show them the ropes and kind of give them the tools and just equip them with everything that they need. So that's been like really exciting to work that way. And something I'm working to do now is I'm evolving it a little bit. And that's something it's like I was saying earlier, like letting yourself evolve, like something I'm doing with the Copy Society is evolving it a little bit. So I'm really excited to, you know, later this year, you know, have a sprint, work with people, give them feedback, give them support, but give them support in a little bit of a different container than how I've been offering it previously. So I'm really excited. Hopefully, I'd have more information up on that soon. And to have some templates and workshops and just different ways to work together. So something I'm really trying to build into my offer suite this year is a little bit more accessibility. I have all of my different project types, ways to work with me. I've got my high ticket services, but then I'm also going to have some really accessible ways to get help with your copy. Because something that I was finding in my research, this time when I was like, okay, let me go back out into the community and see what people are thinking. A lot of people are saying, they're like, yeah, I'm using AI to help me with my copy, but I'm not that happy about it. Really not that great. And they're wanting something to support them a little bit as they're writing their copy. So having a product or having a workshop or having something that can just guide them a little bit. And then maybe down the road, if they want to hire a copywriter, they can. Or they can just continue learning and be their own writer for their business. That's possible too.
Ksenia: Do you find that people that have taken the course or taken any of your lower ticket things where they do it themselves or partially do it themselves, do you find that they eventually hire you to just do it for them? I'm curious if you see that crossover.
Kayla Dean: It's so funny because like something that happened recently, like one of the Copy Society students, she actually hired me to write a quiz for her. That's one of the other things that I do. I got certified in quiz writing last year from a course that I took from like a really like renowned quiz writer. And so it was really funny. She wrote her messaging and her website copy. And she was like, you know what? I could maybe do this quiz thing. But she's like, you know what? I'm going to hire you and have you help me bring this quiz to life. So it was kind of cool, actually, to see her do her website copy and bring her messaging to life. And then I get to work alongside her and bring it out a little bit further with the quiz that we're working on. So it's kind of cool to see people come back for different pieces like that.
Ksenia: Yeah, that's awesome. I can totally see that because then you like have something to work from and also know that like the person that you're working with has learned your framework so you don't have to like kind of take steps back and explain everything or do their work. That's so cool. Well, I mean, well, thank you. This has been a great conversation. I would just love to know if you could go back to like any point in your journey, whether it was like last year, last week, maybe at the very start, or even when you were in university, if you could go back and say something to yourself, when would it be? And where would you go? And then also like, what would you say?
Kayla Dean: Oh, I love that question. So I think what I would do is I would go back to myself maybe like earlier in my business journey, maybe not at the very beginning, but maybe like a year or two into my business. Like I feel like I was so hard on myself. And honestly, that was just like a really hard time in my life too. Like I was I was just dealing with a lot of things personally and I was just like really, really struggling with myself. And, you know, even just functioning day to day was like really hard. I think I would go back to that version of myself and gosh, there's so many things I would say. Maybe it's not something that could be encapsulated in a phrase, but I think I would, I would say so many things. don't be so hard on yourself, I think is the biggest thing. Because I think something that I know I've done and probably a lot of other entrepreneurs do is like, they're so hard on themselves. Like, I remember, you know, just really selling myself short being so, so, so hard on myself. And I think I would definitely encourage myself to not do that, to be a little softer and be a little bit lighter. And Be patient for things to work out for you because I think that's something else too is like, you know, we see a lot of like overnight successes or we see people go from like zero to, oh my gosh, I made a million dollars. And it's like, I mean, that's great. And that's good, you know, good for you. But I think that for a lot of us, it does take longer to see success. And it might take year after year of really working on the business. Sometimes it's that sustainable growth that's going to be better. And yeah, I think I would just say, don't be so hard on yourself. Allow yourself to take the time and know it's going to get better. So yeah.
Ksenia: Yeah, I feel like that's such a key thing. Like, I have definitely had to remind myself that over the years. And it's interesting, because it's like, on one side, it seems like common sense. But I know as soon as you get into your own business, like, sometimes you do become that boss that you hate. Like, yeah, I feel like that's something that like, maybe we don't talk about that much. It's like, sometimes you're not that good of a boss to yourself.
Kayla Dean: That's so true. I had to work on that a lot to be nicer to myself. I mean, I used to work on weekends and do all-nighters and just crazy stuff to try to get my work done. And I definitely got to a point of burnout. There were definitely some times where I was like, Oh my gosh, I don't know if I can keep doing this. I don't know if I can keep being in business. This is awful. This is not You know, everyone's over here being like, woohoo, I'm like rolling in money and I'm just like over here struggling. And so, you know, I think I think that's like so normal to feel that way. Yeah, I was like a really mean, bitchy boss to myself and I had to just like be nicer and just be like, yeah. I need my weekends off. I need my nights off. I need to like actually have some rest here or I'm just going to like burn out for good and I'm not going to be able to do this anymore. So, you know, I think sometimes we can, I don't know, some people maybe like they've got it all figured out, but I know there were some things I had to learn the hard way and that was definitely one of them.
Ksenia: Yeah, I so relate. So just to touch on burnout, is there anything that you do that helps you not go into burnout other than just having the boundaries? Because I know, especially in creative fields, once you get this inspiration, I can hyper-focus for such a long time if that happens. But I also know it's like, oh, I should probably go eat something.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, I've done that before too and then I like forget to eat and I'm like, oh, it's seven o'clock. Oh, okay. Boundaries are huge. SOPs are really huge. And allowing other people to help me, like not having to be the hero and doing everything all the time, like allowing support into my business in different areas has been really helpful. But yeah, I would also say like taking my evenings to relax. I mean, even if I, you know, even if I'm not done till like seven or eight o'clock, you know, kind of depends on when I get started in the morning as to like when I'm when I'm done in the day or what I have to do that day. But definitely having at least a couple of hours in the evening to relax and unwind and getting good sleep has been really huge, underrated, but really, really huge. I find I go to bed earlier now and I didn't used to do that. I used to stay up till really, really late hours. I guess it's just like when I was in my early 20s, I would do that a lot more. And then I guess I kind of phased out of that, I guess. And then definitely having my weekends off, like my weekends are sacred. I never work on the weekends, whereas I used to. And now I'm like, no, I never, ever, ever, ever work on the weekends. Like I don't care how busy it is. I have to, I have to get out of the house. I got to do something fun, you know? So that's always really important. So it's, it's stuff like that, that really helps me. And then also not having like, I don't have the Instagram app on my phone. Like I actually have a separate work phone that I have like my Instagram on just because I would just be like looking at, I don't know, It's like, I don't know, being on Instagram, it is kind of like part of my job. And it's like being at work. And so like, for example, like over the holidays, like when I, you know, celebrating Christmas with my family, like I was off Instagram for like two weeks, like I did not log in because I was like, you know, not logging in and not posting and not worrying about it for two weeks. Like that feels really good to me. So it's stuff like that. It's like allowing myself to just have some breathing room that isn't my business because I do get to a point with it sometimes where I'm like, ah, I need a break. Like even if you love it, you still need a break.
Ksenia: Yeah, I still relate to that. And especially like Instagram. I totally get it, especially I think before I didn't care. Well, I don't know if care is the right word, but like I didn't put that much weight into social media, especially for my business. And I mean, I still am kind of like on and off. But because in my mind, it's like, oh, I did this in case there's a business thing that's like I subconsciously check it. And then it's like, Oh, I spend so much time on Instagram. And like, I don't know if this happens to you, but I'll go on for a business thing. And then somehow, like, I'll forget what I went on to do. And then I'll be just like, looking at cleaning reels, because that's my personal favorite. So I'm like, and then and then I like put my phone down and I'm like, Okay, stop scrolling. And I'm like, totally forgot to do the thing that I was trying to do. So
Kayla Dean: Yeah, I really try to keep the scrolling down. I definitely do scroll. I have other apps I go scroll on. I have Reddit where I'll go read random things or funny entertainment groups. memes or whatever. I have different places I go scroll when I'm not working, but I really try to make Instagram not one of them because it would just be so tempting and I would just feel like… Because I know the algorithm serves me a lot of business-focused reels and carousels. And so I'm like, okay, I need to have some time away from this. And that's… Yeah, that's so key for me. And time away from email to like not checking email. I think that's something like, you know, I used to just like check my email at all hours of the day. And it's like, I can't do that anymore.
Ksenia: It's too stressful. Yeah, that's so interesting, because I so get back. And I think that some, especially when it's on my phone, I will just go into it, my emails and refresh it, like five times and not even realize
Kayla Dean: Is that what I'm doing? Yeah, I do that too. Sometimes even still during the workday, like when I'm like, okay, like during, like sometimes I find myself going to my inbox like again and again, I'm like, no, this is not your job. Like, don't do this. So yeah, I do the same thing. Yeah, especially like, you know, nights and weekends or out of office, I really have to be careful with that because it's just so, I don't know, it's like a dopamine rush. And it's like, I really have to be careful not to be too like, woohoo, let's go check emails because that's, I'm so guilty of that too. Woohoo! Emails! Yeah, and it's like, it's a stressful thing, but there's like some sort of like, I've heard before, I don't know a lot about this, but I've heard before that the way that a lot of like the social media apps and probably the email apps too are designed is basically they're designed like the way that they designed like gambling, basically, like they design it in a way that like gives your brain a little bit of a dopamine rush so that you want to keep checking. Even if like you consciously in your mind, you're going, I don't want to check. I don't want to be scrolling. I don't want to be here. It's like they have literally designed these apps to like trap our minds where we're like, oh, let me just scroll for hours. And then and then we just get get caught up. And it's like that's exactly what they want. So it's like building some boundaries into your life is really important, like wherever you can. It's hard to get away from completely. But like where we can, I think it like creates a lot of freedom.
Ksenia: Mm hmm. Yeah, like I know, I know, they definitely hire like psychologists or like behavioral stuff. Like, yeah, yeah, I'm sure we don't even know the full extent of what they do to build. Yeah, I feel that way, too. Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And where can they find you? Where can they hire you? Do you have any special ways of working with you that you want to share?
Kayla Dean: Yeah, so yeah, I loved this conversation too. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. So you can find me on my website at theliterary.co that has like different ways to work with me. And, you know, very soon I'll have like more details on, you know, some of my templates and course options and some of the things that I have coming up like later this year. And then I'm on Instagram also at theliterary.co.
Ksenia: Yay. Awesome. Thank you so much. This has just been great.
Kayla Dean: Yeah, thank you. This was really great. I feel like we got to like so many things like just so many different like avenues. It was really fun. Yeah.
Ksenia: Thank you for joining us for today's episode. I'm very excited for this podcast and I'd love to hear any feedback, what you thought about it. Please let me know as I want to make this a very useful resource for you. We have some amazing interviews coming up as well as some solo episodes, so keep an eye out for those. Subscribe if you want to be notified when those come out and have them automatically go into your podcast player of choice. All the links mentioned will be in the show notes and also on the podcast page on my site. And lastly, if you'd like to be a guest on the show or have a topic you'd like me to cover, please reach out to me at [email protected]. And that concludes our episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Again, please give me feedback. I want to make this really awesome for you, and I hope you have a great day. Thanks for listening.
